To the Users of AB40K files : How may we help you!

[shaggai]

OK, so far the maintainers have a concensus between each other and it seems like the comments we have reached so far seem to confirm this.

1) Cityfight looks like it is going to be jettisoned - being supplanted by Cities of Death signed the death warrant.
2) Special Characters are going to be default, with the option being available to Remove them should you desire.
3) Race rules, an option which seemed to make more sense when Eldar had craftworlds, and the IG had several options such as abhumans and the like will probably be jettisoned as it isn't used to it possible potential (whatever that may be...)
4) The older scenario FOC adjustments will be removed (Breakthough, Raids, etc.) - they will return in a similar form for Planetstrike, but will only be seen when Planetstrike is selected so there will be only one option (normal scenario) otherwise.
5) Combat Patrol / Kill Team seem to have a few who would not like to see them go, but for the most part many wouldn't mourn their loss too much. I would also point out that the older version of the 40K files meant for 4th edition still have these in them and is partially current. If it is to be the final repository of these items, it might make some of the maintainers decide to go into the older files and update them to keep this aspect of them current.

So far this is what we have discovered throughout the feedback gathered so far, and we appreciate every bit of it offered. I just wanted to update this to let you know what decisions we will have for future iterations of the 40K files.

And while I did say that we will not use this forum for advertsiement, LW has posted that the next iteration of AB3.2 is available for public beta testing. I just want to ensure users that despite all the new "bells & whistles", the current version of the files maintains compatability between 3.1 and 3.2 and will continue to do so for the forseeable future.

[shaggai]

I'd like an output army list in .txt version that I can use to share and discuss lists easily on the internet. As a TO, I'd like a format I can easily check and which players can use easily in game. It is a shame that most veteran tournament players I know in europe complain about this format, it should be contributing to AB's success instead of impeding it. This is an example of what has became the format of reference in the french championship this season : http://dl.free.fr/l7aPknngN. It's still in french but you will quickly get the meaning of the entries. I can expend on the topic if you're interested.

The recent BETA 3.2 offers a few more printing options such as text listing and model listing. Maybe these will have some use for what you intend. I recently inquired to LW about a custom template program to fill in the values of a template such as the Throne of Skulls roster sheet which they "demand" you use instead of any other type of army builder. I was informed that it would take an entire new program to do so - but something similar was done in the past and may not entirely be out of the question (except that it would NOT be out in time to help for that tournament...)

Special mentions à la "Army builder approved " like Stelek suggested would be great, but only valuable if you output the file in pdf or picture format as any sneaky bastard can copy paste the mention in a txt or html format. That would be a great functionnality for a TO, but also good to contribute on AB brand image...

Was told that this could be possible - but not coming soon...

KP and operationnal units are so fundamental in v5 lists it would be great to count them automatically. I dont care at all about v4 scenari & ways and i care almost as much about game add ons such as apocalypse, but i can see an interest in keeping it available somewhere separate from the 'traditional/classic' usage and version.

Would be nice to have yes, but as mentioned before there are things like combat teams that could screw it up. At the moment I think it is better left in the hands of the players to determine when they actually deploy their army (i.e., a game time decision and not one during Army Building).

About the price debate. Of course this would be great to have this but obstacles seem numerous (required partnerships or development). As an IT consultant I can only advise you to focus on improving your primary function (building lists) rather than diversify in another (collecting armies/models). So developments to cover this function should imo be minimized, althought there can be some. For instance, you could offer a price book that the user can fill all by himself. I know it seems a bit basic ( remember I said 'minimized' ) and yet, that would be interesting for me to have this especially when planning a new army collection : when i need to know roughly what selection of models costs me...today i do it on a spreadsheet although i very much prefer AB to build lists.

I agree on this - this is more editorial material than army building. And while it would be nice to have something like this, we do exist under the assumption that you do have the codex and army available and anything else is not allowed...

Last but not least, I really would appreciate that the files by older "versions" can be read when I install a patch. Its a huge waste of time and files to not support files build by older versions...as a consequence I tend to only build 'new lists' or rebuild from scratch once I installed a patched which destroyed compatibility...

Believe it or not, this is one thing we strive for. Unfortunately, there are times where the corrections of errors or other modifications screw up older rosters. We do try to make sure that everyone is aware of this by warning to save older rosters to HTML. And we only try to make sure that this is not a common occurance - we just don't tinker with the files just to upset the users.

[shaggai]

6) Custom FOC: I think this should be considered seriously. Giving end users the power to make illegal for normal play lists is not really an awesome idea. Most tournaments rely on AB being 'correct' to vet lists for them, and only do a cursory scan of list + models. The cheaters (there always are some, sadly) use excel or hand write it out illegibly, and if you give people the ability to do this with AB...most of the point of AB will be gone.

I don't like the output of AB, never have really, but at least I can read it semi-quickly although a 'tournament output' setting would greatly alleviate most concerns. I envisioned this a long time ago but LW was working on hero builder and haven't done much with AB in the years since then. All it is is a output printed at the top of the sheet that states this particular roster uses only official codices without modification, and of course if it doesn't meet that requirement it should output that so it's clearly not legal.

Like in italics: 'This is a tournament ready 5E list using only GW codexes'

And in bold: 'This list uses unofficial or alternative rulesets and is not tournament ready'

I think doing that would be the best possible way to make AB still serve it's purpose and give it a new one.

As noted in a earier comment, I have inquired to LW about the possibility of this - a datafile that would be precompiled and encrypted so that it could not be easily modified and could be set up with large disclaimers and/watermark noting "Tournament Sanctioned" version. Perhaps this could suffice enough for those who would use AB in such a way to validate armies rather than resorting to use of their own format (see Throne of Skulls 2009) which really doesn't do anything other than hassle players to find a real typewriter...

We also do have a small warning at the end of the roster noting validation errors. Maybe we can see if we can make this warning more obvious in the ways you ask...

[Stelek]

Well, it'd be nice if LW puts some more effort into AB. Not sure if it's still their flagship product, but I know the Warhammer stuff is a big driver of it.

Not criticizing them really, just saying...Ab has needed a 'tournament' validation package for many years.

That Throne of Skulls 'requirement' is GW's pushback against AB, why I'm not sure but it is pretty gay--I am guessing though it's the sh***y AB output. I think the way BOLS is doing it (send in your roster, they print out a bunch on their form) is the correct way to do it.

Something that should have been fixed a long time ago but hasn't been.

Oh and this was a comment from a lazy ass who couldn't be bothered to register. =P

The_King_Elessar said...

Leave out bollocks (ie, all) DIY lists. There's my vote.

I wasn't aware LW had AB3.2 available, I was just there and didn't see anything...so thanks for pointing that out.

[Pappystein]

Well, you asked for it!

1) I love, for the most part, the way AB40k has been put together big huge gargantuan THANKS! for that everyone

2) I don't get a chance to play in any sort of sanctioned game, literally just me and a few friends using MY armies. We end up playing some Apocalypse variant (generally with less than 3000 pts) Thus I would like to see more Apocalypse centric features. For example, If I want to field a TacSquad of Spacemarines all armed with Multi-meltas (9 Multi-Meltas + Sargent) I would like the ability to do so when I tick "Apocalypse" in the rules options. Not that I would field such a team. Maybe a Termi Squad of Grey Knights with 5 Psycannons... Basically I would like the Apocalypse flag to remove ALL restrictions on kit. If one person in a Squad can carry X or Y weapon all should be able to in Apocalypse. I am not asking for crazy things like "All units should have access to everything" Rather that just the use restrictions (and Wargear point total restrictions) drop by the wayside when the Apocalypse flags are taken.

As a further clarification Tactical squads can not take combi weapons. With Apocalypse they STILL should not be able to take combi weapons.
A Tactical squad Sargent can not take Plasma Cannon. he still should not be able to take a plasma cannon.


I am not a coder like I used to be. I can barely follow the scripting. But it would seem to me that a simple boolean check for "Apocalypse" could "easily" be added into each unit's cost structure to allow or dis-allow limits on weapons up to the squad size maximum. Probably 3 or 4 lines of code that would just need to be coppied/pasted from each unit to the next.

TIA!
Pappystein

[calydorn]

5) Combat Patrol / Kill Team seem to have a few who would not like to see them go, but for the most part many wouldn't mourn their loss too much.

I for one would hate to see Combat Patrol go as it is the template for the burgeoning GW schools league and as a club organiser it's extremely convenient. The only real changes are that the point restriction has been raised to 500pts and "No Special Characters" rule includes any named character. Full ruleset can be found here: http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_Cus ... 40,000.pdf

Thanks for all the hardwork you guys have put in.

[Spack]

calydorn, thanks for the link to the PDF - I'll be looking over this as it might prove useful at the gaming club I go to. It's odd though - it appears to be the old Patrol Clash (40k in 40 minutes) rules with a few changes, rather than the more refined Combat Patrol rules from the 4th ed rulebook.

[shaggai]

5) Combat Patrol / Kill Team seem to have a few who would not like to see them go, but for the most part many wouldn't mourn their loss too much.

I for one would hate to see Combat Patrol go as it is the template for the burgeoning GW schools league and as a club organiser it's extremely convenient. The only real changes are that the point restriction has been raised to 500pts and "No Special Characters" rule includes any named character. Full ruleset can be found here: http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_Cus ... 40,000.pdf

Thanks for all the hardwork you guys have put in.

I'll have to read through it fully in a little bit...been a very bad day of after work nonsense (broken down truck). But perhaps this may be the 5E answer to combat Patrol/Kill Team.

[Homer_S]

I don't like the output of AB, never have really, but at least I can read it semi-quickly although a 'tournament output' setting would greatly alleviate most concerns. I envisioned this a long time ago but LW was working on hero builder and haven't done much with AB in the years since then. All it is is a output printed at the top of the sheet that states this particular roster uses only official codices without modification, and of course if it doesn't meet that requirement it should output that so it's clearly not legal.

We can look into a header/footer that would state something like "Official units only" or "List includes unofficial units."

I have a question regarding the output. I think it would be possible to print the list without base equipment/rules. So there would two possible outputs:

Code: Select all

Warrior   Stats
Included Item 1 .... n; Option 1; Option 7.

or

Code: Select all

Warrior   Stats
Option 1; Option 7.

That way, a newer player would have the full listing but a seasoned player would get a shorter list that shows sufficient detail so no arguments exist over what a unit paid for in terms of non-basic wargear/upgrades.

Thoughts?
Homer

[Cirative]

The two popups that load after you select the game format (IE, 5th edition 40K). There's usually a patch notes and an "important information" popup. I don't see a need for the "important information" popup. Remove?

[Elric]

As far as the Community Section / BOLS, I happen to use that.
I also happen to still be a fan of 40k in 40 minutes and some of the other Scenarios.

What can be done to accommodate that, as these are features that I do not wish to lose

Thank you.

[Stelek]

Homer, I think that would be great.

I've also posted my thoughts in the LW forums.

Hopefully all of this can come together and make more users happy.

[Yummyfudge]

I would like to see the output more Victory Point friendly. Overall it's great, but as an example where I think it could do better:

I field an Inquisitor with a retinue. That works great and is easy to read, as it spells out the unit cost. Simple.

Now add a Land Raider dedicated transport.
It first it adds the Land Raider to the unit cost. Yes, I know it is part of the unit cost, but this only matters before the game starts, as once the game starts, transports are ALWAYS counted as a separate unit.

Second, the Inquisitor now cost's 365 points. Why can't he (the Inquisitor) just be listed as HIS point cost, not the total for the unit? This includes his retinue. It very plainly reads the unit cost in the bottom line.

Point is, is it possible to put the Transport cost separate from the unit cost? Yes, I can just pull out a calculator and figure it out, but is the point of AB and AB40K not to minimize the time spent doing math?
A second line for the unit cost where the transports are listed separate would help.

Yummyfudge

[Golf33]

I think non-standard lists & gametypes should be dropped. Just keep the current, official set of releases.

I'd like to see the popups disappear, at least after the first time a new version of the files is opened.

I would like to see a little reorganisation of some of the individual armies to make building a bit more intuitive. Things like making sure units have the same name as they do in the codex and making sure all options are selectable within the unit. As an example, instead of having a Mega-Armoured Warboss unit type, there should just be the Warboss unit type with an option to select Mega-Armour. Where a unit can be taken in one of several flavours (for example Ork Big Guns) have a single listing for the unit, like in the codex, and provide the different flavours in that listing, like in the codex.

[Azzy]

I would love to see an option for customizing the FOC and other elements. That way those of use that play campaigns and/or other "non-standard" games can design our own scenarios, use the older missions and so forth.

Also, not a big fan of the pop-ups... If you swing having them only appear when the files are update that'd be great. If you can't, could you please condense it to only a single pop-up?

Thanks for the great work thus far!