Stompas and How they are handled

[Pappystein]

Hey all, I don't know if I should have posted this as a Bug or not.... Depends on what book supersedes what other book in you the AB40K teams outlook. Locally my group follows the premise that Codex is law unless a newer book specifically states "change to codex..." After that the latest book trumps all previous books. As IA effectively ended as a separate rules base with the launch of Apocalypse, IA8 would supersede the original Apocalypse books of 2 years ago (or whenever launch date was.) That is my viewpoint at least.

IA8 specifically calls out in the Kustom Stompa rules that "There are many different types of Stompa, most are just referred to as Stompas, carrying lost of Big gunz and boyz,... ...regardless of their type, all stompas start with the profile below." IA8 pg 193

I take that to mean in any and all Apocalypse Data sheets, the word stompa should refer to Kustom Stompa, unless such a data-sheet specifically calls out a sub-variant like "Big Mek's Stompa," or similar ilk.


What are your thoughts?

[Spack]

That line refers, IMO, to all Kustom Stompas created using that particular ruleset. They are not to replace all Stompas everywhere, the line is simply an intro about how the Kustom Stompa rules work.

[Pappystein]

Spack, I figured that would be the reply. IMHO, Apocalypse + AB40K are not the most interchangeable. In-part you have the issue of how to code all the variables in play, in part there is that issue of Codex writing is very specific, Apocalypse writing is very vague (intentionally.) IMHO the AB40K team has taken the right approach to Codex and expansions in general. IE replicate the game EXACTLY AS IT IS WRITTEN. This is perfect for a Tournament game and you guys do a PHENOMENAL job at making AB40K as great as it is. However Apocalypse is NOT a tournament game and this is where the breakdown occurs. GW/FW write apocalypse rules in a completely different style than they write Codex entries or any other expansion. Right out of the gate they talk about creating your own units, modifying existing units and the like. They are expecting US the player to make the entries ourselves as we go. Sure the individual entries look exactly like codex entries, but the core rules of Apocalypse are meant to be broken and fudged with… You almost have to set your brain to neutral, then “open your mind” as it were, to all things Apocalypse. After all, the introduction to Apocalypse both on the web and in the book talks about BREAKING THE RULES. As a rule of thumb Apocalypse entries are not meant to be ridged and binding like a normal codex entry. I think IA8 has done a stupendous job in separating it the best. Some entries are written specifically for Codex/tournament style play. They are clearly called out. Other entries, are more guidelines than rules. I think it comes down to this; Apocalypse is a game of ANYTHING GOES. I CAN field a unit of 5 Grey Knight Terminators all armed with Psycannons if I want. Of-course I have to validate the point cost with my opponent before I drop it on the table but I CAN DO THAT. Ideally, and I know this is likely pushing well beyond the boundaries of AB3.2 or even the upcoming 3.3, I would like to see a Custom Troop choice for each army, in addition to a non VDR custom Vehicle creator. I won’t go into details here because that is not what I am here to talk about right now.

Prior to the site restructure, the old Bug tracker was replete with users complaining that they had interpreted a rule differently than the AB40K crew. Hey the English language is one of the worst for ambiguousness and the ability to describe things concisely. It was bound to happen. The common thread to the responses from you the crew was “we must follow the rules AS they are written, not try to interpret them beyond that.” The Rule says “All Stomas.” It does not say “All Kustom Stompas.” The fact that a Kustom Stompa can make ANY of the other variant Stompas for the same point cost further enforces this point.

In the end, I am here trying to provide this as a constructive criticism to HELP IMPROVE things. That being said, you, the AB40K staff are the deciding factor and I will not follow up on this beyond this existing post unless specifically asked for more info by you the staff. I will abide by however the staff choose to handle this

Thank you for your time reading this rather lengthy post and your consideration.

[Spack]

It's a fine balance between trying to make sure the files reflect the rules accurately, and creating confusion and chaos. For those people who have Apocalypse and don't have the IA rules, how can they add their stompas to the list reflecting the profiles shown in that book?

Try to argue that the Kustom Stompa rules making references to "stompas" should override every other reference anywhere else is also highly flawed - it's all about the context. The rules pertain to Kustom Stompas, and the language structure makes it clear, to me at least (and everyone in my gaming group who I have discussed this with) that the word "stompa" in that context refers to the subject of the rules - Kustom Stompas - and is not a wide ranging reference to all Stompa datasheets. Should GW and FW decide that they will change the profiles of all Stompas then they need to produce appropriate FAQs or updated datasheets making this clear - the files should not be changed because of an out of context interpretation that so far one person has commented upon.

As it is, the Apocalypse Stompa should match the one as printed in the Apocalypse book, and the IA Kustom Stompa should match the one on IA8. That way everyone is kept happy. Should you decide you want to change this the files can be edited fairly easily, or simply enable the Generic Unit option in the rules and use the Generic Unit as your placeholder.

[Pappystein]

Spack you asked the question so I respond. I hope it was not meant as a rhetorical question

<INSERT CORRECTION>
For the Record both I and the AB40K crew have made a mistake. These two mistakes make my argument temporary at least dead wrong. My Mistake is that there are two Kustom Stompas listed in AB40K. I am referring to the Kustom Stompa (IA.) The AB40K crew has made a bug that makes the Kustom STompa (IA) in 1.08C not completely compatible with the default stompa due to some improper options. I have posted a Bug report all proppa orklike in the Buglist. Once the Bugs are fixed the below comments will be accurate and valid in my opinion.
<END CORRECTION>

Kustom Stompa (IA) allows the construction of EVERY Stompa variant in the game. All the way back to the original Apocalypse at the point costs for each and every Stompa...

The only difference between Kustom Stompa (IA,) and the original Apocalypse stompa is you have to choose your weapons. There are no default selections.

If a person has the original Apocalypse book they KNOW what options they need to take to make that stompa. This is why I do not understand why the Kustom Stompa (IA) rules have not overtaken all the other rules. So instead of just default weapons there are other choices. That could easily be fixed by a single button called "Default Loadout" Push it and it applies all the "Proper" selections for the default Stompa for example. This was done with other units in the past so I do not see why it can not be done here.

[Spack]

Your original post made it appear that you wanted ALL Stompas overridden with the Kustom Stompa rules, and that is what I was saying was not going to happen. If you don't like that, then you are free to edit the files as you see fit. Not everyone has the IA rulebooks - so the GW datasheets will remain as they are. It doesn't matter if the GW Stompa can be created from the IA one - both will be included because they are both current in the rules.