Space Marine Sergeants and Bikers need consistancy

[gungagreg]

Quoting from my ticket:

"In order for a Bike Squad to upgrade to a special weapon, they need to replace a Bolter or a Melee Weapon with the upgrade. Currently AB v1.30 does not replace any weapons when upgrading Bikers to a special weapon. The 09/13 SM FAQ from GW gave the bike squads access to a Melee weapon by allowing their Bolt Pistols to be upgraded to a Chainsword. This is the intended "vehicle" for upgrading them to a special weapon."

Currently AB allows Bikers to upgrade without a wargear swap - effectively ignoring the FAQ that explicitly allows them a legal avenue for upgrading to a special weapon...on the same subject, the Sergeants in other squads are currently blocked in AB from upgrading their bolter to a Melee/Ranged Weapon list item - even though they already in the book had access to a Free Chainsword in place of their Bolter....

My case is that we need some consistency and that AB should either

1. For the Bikers to reduce their Bolt Pistols by one for each special weapon they get AND the Sergeants should be able to effectively trade their Bolter for a Melee/Ranged weapon list item (via an exchange for a Chainsword)
OR

2. Keep the Sergeants as is (no bolter exchanges) AND prevent the Bikers from getting a special weapon (even though the option exists for them in the book) because it's somehow not legal to exchange their Bolt Pistols for the requisite Melee weapon (chainsword) necessary to get a special weapon.

I obviously think #1 is the correct approach and you'll find that there's no other community forum that disagrees with this - I challenge anyone to find a significant forum (like Dakka for instance) that feels otherwise.

[Homer_S]

So the proposed mechanism is any model that can swap one piece of wargear for an option can then swap that option again for something else. In this case: Bolter for Chainsword, Chainsword for Melee Weapon. Is this explained or FAQd by GW anywhere?

Assuming that, I suppose the way they could have written this more clearly would have been to say Sergeants have Bolt Pistol and Boltgun or Chainsword. Then that would remove the two swap mechanism. I suppose one way to clear this up is to make that assumption.

Homer

[jlong05]

While I am largly getting very done with this whole game system, one other point I would like to make is that all because GW chooses to FAQ one unit to 'fix' their poorly written rules, doesn't mean that the same 'fix' can/should be unilaterally assigned to all similar units as well. That would need to be included in the FAQ as well, which clearly GW chose to not do.

And yes, the proper way this should have been done is that models shoudl have had either a bolter or a chainsword/pistol which would have been more clear, but then people would bitch cause they use to get..., or that other army gets..., or its just not fair that I cant have...

[jboweruk]

Okay, tell us where in the FAQ's or the BRB or the C:SM it says you can't swap the chainsword... Because I'm blowed if I can find it.

[Cylindryk]

Ekhm...
But it's still doesn't explains, why one unit can have a illegal (in your version) option: Bikers with Special Weapons.
Well... even in "normal" (RB, Codex, FAQ version, because only these three things matters in RAW version), they are still illegal, because they cannot have both Bolt Pistol/Chainsword and Special Weapon...

Make this one way or another. Not like this. Be consistent. You can eat the cake or have it, not both.


Homer: yes, it is. In SM FAQ, which allows to swap BP for Chainsword, so you can have a Melee Weapon needed for Special Weapon. Otherwise, this FAQ doesn't make sense, because, in your version, it's not affect anything... so, are you saying, this FAQ is useless?

[Homer_S]

Homer: yes, it is. In SM FAQ, which allows to swap BP for Chainsword, so you can have a Melee Weapon needed for Special Weapon. Otherwise, this FAQ doesn't make sense, because, in your version, it's not affect anything... so, are you saying, this FAQ is useless?

All the FAQ says is that you can swap a Boltgun for a Chainsword. No problem there. Oh, and I'm just discussing rules not the implementation in the files. Whole different maintainer there.

Homer

[Cylindryk]

Not Boltgun, Bolt Pistol.

And think: to have Special Weapon you need Meele weapon, like Chainsword.
Bikers have only Bolt Pistol, so they can't have any Special Weapon.
FAQ says: you can exchange Bolt Pistol to Chainsword.
Now you have a Chainsword, which is needed to swap to Special Weapon.
In short, Bikers, after FAQ (and only after) can have Special Weapons. By exchange BP for Chainsword and trade it for Special Weapon.

And in Rulebook there is no word about your ridiculous banning of double swaping... not in 6ed, not in 5ed, not even in 4ed.

So... yes, RAW says, it's legal.

There is no way to have both Special Weapon and Bolt Pistol/Chainsword, like it is in AB files...

[Magpie]

Actually if there isn't anything written about double swapping then it can't be RAW can it.

[jboweruk]

Which has rather been my point for a while now...

[jlong05]

Actually if there isn't anything written about double swapping then it can't be RAW can it.

I think on top of this is that the rules dictate what you can do. You 'can' swap one item for another, however once you have made that swap, the rules do not say if you are again allowed to continue to swap those out for new items. It appears to be possibly implied due to the new rules layout, but honestly GW shoudl clarify this by updating their FAQ for all units and not just a single unit.

[Cylindryk]

Rules say: you need Melee weapon to swap it for something. When you exchange Bolter for Chainsword, you have Melee Weapon.
There is nowhere says about forbidden "double swaping", as you calling it. You only need Melee Weapon, which you have after exchanging Bolter for Chainsword. How hard is to understand this? And there was no such rule in 5ed or 4ed... this rule is only your home rule, so there is no need for such FAQ.

Version 1.31: there is still a bug, either with Bikers or Seargeants. Fix it already...
Also: Bikers cannot have both Bolt Pistol/Chainsword and Special Weapon! Never.

[jlong05]

<cite>Cylindryk wrote:</cite>... Fix it already...

Demands like this only alienate the support core for the files. I give you permission to update it yourself.

[jboweruk]

Actually if there isn't anything written about double swapping then it can't be RAW can it.

I think on top of this is that the rules dictate what you can do. You 'can' swap one item for another, however once you have made that swap, the rules do not say if you are again allowed to continue to swap those out for new items. It appears to be possibly implied due to the new rules layout, but honestly GW shoudl clarify this by updating their FAQ for all units and not just a single unit.

Ah but then why would they specifically 'prohibit' it in Codex: Tyranids if it wasn't allowed otherwise?

[Homer_S]

Actually if there isn't anything written about double swapping then it can't be RAW can it.

I think on top of this is that the rules dictate what you can do. You 'can' swap one item for another, however once you have made that swap, the rules do not say if you are again allowed to continue to swap those out for new items. It appears to be possibly implied due to the new rules layout, but honestly GW shoudl clarify this by updating their FAQ for all units and not just a single unit.

Ah but then why would they specifically 'prohibit' it in Codex: Tyranids if it wasn't allowed otherwise?

What specifically do they prohibit? References help here.

Homer

[UltraPrime]

Ah but then why would they specifically 'prohibit' it in Codex: Tyranids if it wasn't allowed otherwise?

What specifically do they prohibit? References help here.

Homer

I believe this refers to the Tyranid Prime entry, where it states that you can exchange the Devourer for Scything Talons, but these cannot further be exchanged.

In fact, the Tyranid codex is a good example of multi-exchanging. For example, the Hive Tyrant comes with Lash Whip/Bonesword and Scything Talons as standard. You may exchange the LW/BS for ST. It then states you can exchange any set of ST for Deathspitters or Devourers. I believe the multi-Devourer Hive Tyrant is a popular choice, and certainly don't recall anyone calling foul from this.