Transport Limits

[Homer_S]

So as not to continue to clog the shout box, I want to start this thread.

Question: Must a unit fit completely in a transport to take the transport as "dedicated"? Note that the CSM FAQ states clearly that a unit need not fit into its transport to take it.

Ground rules:
- obey the site's policies.
- specify the rule you are going off of
- as always in any good RAW discussion, check your common sense and sense of reality at the door

To start us off...

Space Wolves
Page 4 - If SW use drop pods at all, they must all do so. That means that a squad must fit into its drop pod, as they have no other way to enter the game. Specifies the units that may use them and SM Codex capacity applies.

Page 10 - All capacities per SM Codex

Pages 8, 10 and 12 - Wolf Guard, Grey Hunters, Blood Claws and Long Fangs; all specify which transports are allowed and that the transport may only be taken if the unit and any joined characters fit.

Therefore no SW unit may take a transport it will not fit in and specifically, no unit larger than 12 may take a Drop Pod.

Space Marines
With the exception of Tactical Squads, page 134, no SM unit says a size when listing eligible transports, including drop pods.

Therefore, any unit may take any transport that is specified in its army list description, except Tac Squads as noted. That might mean a drop pod has to come down empty.

Please feel free to post similar analyses for other races, not just SW/SM.

Homer

[Spack]

There isn't an overall rule for this - it's down to each codex to determine if a unit can take a transport even if it can't fit in it. As you've demonstrated, the SW and SM codexes do clearly state when they can be taken.

[shaggai]

Well, as I mentioned elsewhere - I think in a previous bug report - the SW codex Drop Pod was simply a game mechanic. You placed your large blast template, scattered if need be, and then placed your models on top of it and that was it. And note that there was not a cost to do so, just a decision made at army design.

Now the SW FAQ mentions to use the Codex: SM drop pod - a physical model. It has a transport capacity, and also a cost. Thus, while there is nothing in the SM codex regarding transport size, the drop pod model itself does. And this is the reason why I made the transport limitation apply in the case of SW units which take a drop pod.

[Gwar]

Hey all. Long time lurker, love the datafiles. Saw the S#!tstorm on the front page and thought I'd contribute.

Unfortunately shaggai, while it is common sense, its not what the rules say (I mean I think its stupid but whatever)

The FAQ says: "Drop Pods: Use the rules for Drop Pods in Codex: Space Marines. Follow the Codex: Space Wolves list of models that can utilize Drop Pods."

The way I see it, Space Wolves now no longer have to do an all or nothing. Instead, any unit in Power Armour or Scout Armour (Including HQ Independent Characters) may purchase a Drop Pod at the cost in Codex: Space Marines and use it to come in T1 or through Reserves.

As you use the Rules in Codex Space Marines for Drop pods, we can deduce that the Drop Pod does have a Limit of 12 Models or One Dreadnought. Blood Claws now have an option of "May buy a Drop Pod" as well as "May buy a rhino if under 10 Models" Nowhere in either the Drop Pods rules, or the Blood Claws rules, does it say they cannot buy a Drop pod if Over 12 models (only one I can see is in the Tactical Squad Entry, which has no bearing over either Drop Pods nor Blood Claws).
If the rule said "may not buy a transport they cannot fit in" then it would be right, but it only mentions rhinos. The same again for Grey Hunters. Nowhere does it say "May buy a razorback if under 6 models" or May buy a razorback if they can fit in it" but rather "May buy a Razorback".

Heading back to Blood Claws for a moment, they could buy one if at 13+, but they wouldn't be able to deploy inside it in reserve, so they either have to walk on the board and send the pod empty, or Deploy as Normal and Keep their transport in reserve (Same way that 10 man Tactical Squads can do so with their Razorbacks or Drop Pods if they have 2 Terminator Characters Attached to it when in reserve).

Don't forget that just because you buy a transport, you don't have to deploy in it. You can Deploy the unit on the table and keep the transport in reserve empty.

The only conceivable use for buying a pod for 13+ Claws I can think of is to add in another drop pod so you can get more useful pods on T1 while the Blood Claws trundle along in a LRC.

[Spack]

The SW codex uses old 3rd ed terminology when it comes to transport vehicles, so you have to apply 3rd ed rulebook handling to it too. Take the Grey Hunters example - it says "The entire squad may be mounted in a Rhino ... or Razorback ...". Notice the emphasis on "entire squad" - 10 models with a Razorback does not consititute the "entire squad" being mounted in the transport.

Until GW includes a clear Q&A in the English FAQ there is no clear answer either way. The policy of the maintainers is to err on the side of caution in unclear circumstances, and so having the Pods (and other transports) only available to squad sizes that will fit them is the best, at least in my opinion, solution at the present time.

[Homer_S]

The FAQ says: "Drop Pods: Use the rules for Drop Pods in Codex: Space Marines. Follow the Codex: Space Wolves list of models that can utilize Drop Pods."

The way I see it, Space Wolves now no longer have to do an all or nothing. Instead, any unit in Power Armour or Scout Armour (Including HQ Independent Characters) may purchase a Drop Pod at the cost in Codex: Space Marines and use it to come in T1 or through Reserves.

Except that the rule in the SW codex on drop pods continues to say it is all or nothing. The FAQ does not dispute this, it only replaces the mechanism in the first paragraph with the model from the SM codex.

Since the drop pod rules for SW are all or nothing, they cannot buy a drop pod they don't fit into. They have no other way to get on the board otherwise. This is the downside to having a codex stuck in the Eye of Terror!

As you use the Rules in Codex Space Marines for Drop pods, we can deduce that the Drop Pod does have a Limit of 12 Models or One Dreadnought. Blood Claws now have an option of "May buy a Drop Pod" as well as "May buy a rhino if under 10 Models" Nowhere in either the Drop Pods rules, or the Blood Claws rules, does it say they cannot buy a Drop pod if Over 12 models (only one I can see is in the Tactical Squad Entry, which has no bearing over either Drop Pods nor Blood Claws).
If the rule said "may not buy a transport they cannot fit in" then it would be right, but it only mentions rhinos. The same again for Grey Hunters. Nowhere does it say "May buy a razorback if under 6 models" or May buy a razorback if they can fit in it" but rather "May buy a Razorback".

Heading back to Blood Claws for a moment, they could buy one if at 13+, but they wouldn't be able to deploy inside it in reserve, so they either have to walk on the board and send the pod empty, or Deploy as Normal and Keep their transport in reserve (Same way that 10 man Tactical Squads can do so with their Razorbacks or Drop Pods if they have 2 Terminator Characters Attached to it when in reserve).

Don't forget that just because you buy a transport, you don't have to deploy in it. You can Deploy the unit on the table and keep the transport in reserve empty.

The only conceivable use for buying a pod for 13+ Claws I can think of is to add in another drop pod so you can get more useful pods on T1 while the Blood Claws trundle along in a LRC.

Page by page:

Page 8 - Wolf Guard: last sentence under Transport Vehicles, "Transport Vehicles may not be taken unless the Bodyguard and character assigned to them can all fit into the vehicle."

Page 10 - Grey Hunters: Squad size fits in Rhino or Drop Pod but not Razorback. It goes on to say "The entire squad may be mounted in ... a Razorback ..." It does not say, may take a Razorback but that it must be mounted in it. This means that it must fit into it.

Page 10 - Blood Claws: Transport Vehicles states the squad must be 10 or less to take one.

Page 12 - Long Fangs: The maximum squad size fits in all eligible transports.

Until this thing gets updated or a major FAQ, SW must fit into their transports and transports may only carry the unit they were bought for. Again, GW has had 2 easy chances to fix this and did not.

Finally, you can always use the "Other" unit functionality to pay the cost for a transport for any unit and make a note such as "Drop Pod assigned to Squad of 15 Blood Claws" and pay the right cost. Not elegant but keeps the roster cost right. Then you get to have the argument during your game/at a tourney.

Homer

[apHywel]

Can a unit enter the battlefield by two different methods and does the dedicated transport count as part of the unit? The answer to this could have ramifications on whether you can exceed the transport capacity of a drop pod. I tried to find specific rules but had no luck.

[Homer_S]

Can a unit enter the battlefield by two different methods and does the dedicated transport count as part of the unit? The answer to this could have ramifications on whether you can exceed the transport capacity of a drop pod. I tried to find specific rules but had no luck.

Other than Combat Squads, I do not believe that a unit may enter two different ways, see page 66 of the BRB. All of a unit must be embarked on a single transport if any part of the unit is. I think it would be difficult to maintain coherency. See pages 67 and 92 for the relationship of a dedicated transport to the unit that it was purchased for. They are separate units and the transport counts as being the same FOC type as the parent unit.

This does not mean that the entire unit has to fit in order to take a dedicated transport, see the CSM FAQ.

Just to keep things interesting, a codex may limit this. The SM codex as stated above has no restrictions on unit size and dedicated transports with the exception of the Tactical Squad and drop pod.

Homer