Summary of all the current Chaos info

[Wraithlord]

Here ya go. Thanks to the gents on Warseer:

Generic Points:
- Daemon summoning to remain basically the same
- All daemonic gifts are gone
- most god specific wargear is gone
- Veteran skill upgrades are gone
- books of chaos are gone
- no special rules for any specific legion
- Marks/Icons work as follows Khorne +1A, Tzeentch 5+ invul save or +1 to existing invul save, Slaanesh +1I, Nurgle +1T. The units which can take them are identified as such below.
- Daemon weapons are generic, simply give +1S and +D6 attacks, but if a 1 is rolled something bad happens
- there may be "upgrades" to the basic daemon weapons for the 4 specific gods, but that is a discrepancy between 2 sources
- daemonic steeds do exist, simply giving IC's which are given them stat bonuses. A juggernaught of Khorne gives the character +1S and +1A, but he takes up 2 spots in a land raider. Others include tzeentch discs, steeds of slaanesh, and nurgle palanquins
- most troops come with a bolter, bolt pistol, ccw, and frag and krak grenades as standard (yes, all of those)
- Rhinos reduced in points cost, as in the Dark Angels codex.

NOTE: there are no cult units beyond those listed in the troops section. For example, the only plague marines are the "plague marines" unit entry in the troops section. You cannot take plague marine havocs or plague marine terminators. You can give terminators the mark of Nurgle, but they only gain +1T, they do not get FNP or blight grenades. This is true for all 4 gods.

HQ
Lord
- comes with daemonic aura as standard
- can be marked

Sorcerer
- can be marked,
- there is one god specific psychic power for each god (except Khorne) and many of the existing psychic powers remain
- new power 'warp time' allows re-rolls to hit and to wound in close combat
- nurgles rot acts like a pandemic staff
- bolt of change is AP1

Daemon prince
- may be marked
- may have pychic powers

Generic Greater Daemon
- does not take HQ slot
- does not fly
- CANNOT be marked

Typhus
- has the nurgles rot power without a psychic test
- has daemon weapon that is also a force weapon

Abaddon
-Talon/Drachn'yen now one weapon. Counts as a Daemon weapon (DW's are a generic weapon now, all grant +D6 attacks and +1S, but if a 1 is rolled you cannot attack) but it doubles his Strength and you can re-roll failed hits and wounds.

Arihman
- can use 3 psychic powers a turn including force staff
- knows all the chaos psychic powers except the god-specific Slaanesh and Nurgle powers

Kharn
- more or less the same as he is in the current dex except:
- gorechild has 2D6 penetration vs. vehicles
- he's immune to all psychic powers.
- WS 8? maybe?

Lucious

Fabius Bile

Huron Blackheart
-Tyrant's claw is a powerfist with built in heavy flamer.
-Hamadyra grants him the "Warp Time" psychic power (WT allows you to re-roll all failed hits and wounds in HTH)

ELITE
Possessed
- have a randomly generated ability (nothing, fleet, power weapons, furious charge, rending, feel no pain)

Terminators
- one reaper autocannon
- may all be upgraded to aspiring champions with +1A
- can be marked
- squads can be 3+ models

Chosen
- only unit with infiltrate
- can be marked
- many options, a bit like DA's Veterans

Dreadnoughts
- may be given 2ccw
- frenzy table still exists but is slightly changed

TROOPS
Chaos space marines
- can be marked
- min size need for some weapon upgrades
- aspiring champion limited to basic wargear upgrades (PW, PF, PP)

Khorne Beserkers
- have the +1A over normal marines, WS5 and furious charge
- no bloodfrenzy or chainaxes

Plague Marines
- +1T, blight grenades, feel no pain

Noise Marines/Emperors children
- +1I and access to sonic weapons
- doomsiren AP3
- blastmaster on max power is a small blast krak missile

Thousand Sons
- slow and purposeful on 1 dice
- AP 3 bolters (inferno bolts)
- 4+ invul save
- only 1 wound
- sorcerer sergeant with 2 psychic powers, but no power fist option, and allows 2d6 for slow and purposeful

Generic Lesser Daemons
- do not take up a troop slot
- CANNOT take marks

FAST ATTACK
Raptors
- no more hit and run
- can be marked
- price reduced

Spawn
- may be beasts/cavalry
- do NOT take up a Fast Attack slot

NO Daemon beast units

Bikers
- can be marked

HEAVY SUPPORT
Obliterators
- CANNOT be marked (heard somewhere on the net, highly contested)
- S and T 4
- no longer 0-1
- possibly lose power fists for power weapons (contested)
- possibly only access energy weapons, not ballistic weapons (ie lascannons but not bolters)

Vindicator
- currently highly contested between two sources

Land Raider

Predator

Defiler
- no more indirect fire
- WS3
- can trade in some of its shooting weapons for more CCW having up to 6A
- can be given fleet (probably it will be a default upgrade)

Havocs
- Can be marked

[Col_Stone]

Huron Blackheart
-Tyrant's claw is a powerfist with built in heavy flamer.
-Hamadyra grants him the "Warp Time" psychic power (WT allows you to re-roll all failed hits and wounds in HTH)

i'll finally get to use my conversion legally woohoo

all else sounds fair enough aswell, been longing for a "generic" CSM list.. just the more "human" troops missing( lost and the damned traitor guard)

[Rayne]

This isnt including the future individual Books of Chaos for each cult army, right? Because if this is right, Word Bearers, Night Lords, and Iron Warriors just got shafted into non-existance, and the 4 Cult Armies just became all unplayable.

[Col_Stone]

welcome to the New Dex era for your army

it's fairly certain that any godspecific bookrumours are far away..

i'm quite sure that they will find ways to recreate the other legions as well like they did in Codex Eldar(e.g all armies beside ulthwe are very much playable )

rest assured that nearly every codex will invalidate some of your units... i

[Ghaz]

Since this is all still rumors, away to the News and Rumors forum we go

[Wraithlord]

Gah thanks Ghaz, don't know what got into me there lol.


Rayne: from what Gav told me at the Canadian GT, cult specific books are a slight and extremely far off possibility. As it stands ALL the cult legions and the Undivided legions will be represented in the new book similar to the way the Craftworlds are done in the Eldar book. For example, want a Tson army, give everything the MoT. Want Iron Warrior, take 9 Oblits and a bunch of Dreadnoughts, etc. Word Bearers will be even easier as daemons don't take a FOC spot anymore. Just take 2 troops of Marines and then all the daemons you could ask for.

What WILL be gone are the legion specific rules found in the current codex. Depending on the army you took, this is either good or bad. For Tson and Death Guard players the new rumours are staggeringly sweet while for Alpha Legion and Cheese, sorry, Iron Warrior players, the news is terrible.

Personally, I am really looking forward to the new dex as I already have visions of a Thousand Sons legion with Rubrics, bikers, Raptors, and Havocs/Oblits. Yeah......... Oblits.

[Rayne]

But one of the things that makes each of the cult armies special is thier special rules. Servo arms carrying cheeseplatters for Iron Warriors, Demagogues and Cultists for Word Bearers, Everything in the damned Immaterium for Alpha Legion, etc. For Tsons and Death Guard, nothing really changes. But what about the Night Lords, who are no longer able to field the ungodly number of freaking raptors that they can now. Making all the armies generic takes away all the things that makes the game interesting.

[Wraithlord]

Quote:
Originally Posted by hivefleetcarrion
does anyone know if the possessed are going to be generic marines with a few special weapon spures added in or totally new models?

Totally new kit, and a significant improvement over the existing models.


Venerable Dred

Ok guys, here are a few more rumours for you. Keep in mind this is from a store manager but they might provide some nice discussion as he confirmed having a copy of the codex for himself.

All cult champions are getting a new model with the Khorne champ arriving first.

Abbadon is apparantly ungodly good in the new codex. Manager compared him to how amazing Archaeon is in fantasy. Said he was 'just incredibly sick'. Sorry no details on that though

Daemons are NOT markable and are in fact not daemons as we know them currently but rather more along the lines of bound daemons, warp entities who are bound to a host or something similar. The explanation was that GW wants this codex to be Codex: Chaos Space Marines not Codex: Chaos and as such, the focus is entirely on the marines themselves.

Greater daemons are generic stats as mentioned but some of the stats were (and forgive me if I have gotten these a bit mixed up) things like WS9, Str8, In5, etc. He told me that while we won't have Bloodthirsters and Lords of Change like we do now, greater daemons will still be deadly in a big way.

Daemon weapons are there as mentioned with the same stats all the way around for a basic one, but there ARE god weapons. Khorne weapon becomes +2D6 hits, the Nurgle one always hits on a 4+, the Tzeentch weapon is a S4 or 5, AP3 storm bolter or similar (wasn't super clear on this one but basically said it was a better Kai gun), and the Slaanesh one causes instant death regardless of wounds (he thought this applied to Nids as well).

The armoury is gone only in the sense of there being one huge page of stuff to take. Now all the options it would have contained are in each individual unit entry for easier use. According to him, the Chaos Lord entry is similar to the Carnifex entry, with nearly 3/4's of the page given over to all the options he can take. Told me that Lords have just as much choice as before if not a little more.

Deamon Princes are all S6, T5 now and are immune to instant kill. The rumours of the gifts they have already posted were pretty much dead on with the Prince having the option to buy wings and maybe a couple other things. Cannot take deamon weapons but apparantly make up for it in just sheer power on their own. Cost before the few upgrades allowed is -just- above 100 or so apparantly.

Vehicle upgrades ARE still in the book (whoo hoo, first confirmation of this afaik). Most are the same as now however, Daemonic Possession has been slightly altered (didn't say how) and Mutated Hull is completely removed.

Defilers are as stated in this thread but are no longer monstrous creatures (still S10 however). May fleet and exchange its arm weapons for ccws and comes with 3 base attacks. WS has also been beefed up quite a bit as well.

There WILL be a codex down the road that focuses on cultists, Latd, and daemons which is where you will see the return of the daemons we all know and love now.

That is all I can remember for the moment but I thought I would share it with all of you. I did find it interesting that he found 'all those internet threads moaning about chaos being nerfed and sucking' to be 'hilarious'. His words were 'I think this is the best Chaos codex yet written'. Take that as you will.

[Rayne]

Im gonna start working on my IG for right now. When the new Chaos codex comes out, you can bet im gonna forget the IG and start hopping all over a new Ksons army.

And as for the rumors, we just need to be patient. Alot of these rumors say they are confirmed, but its all 3rd to 6th hand information. The only rumor i want to hear is when i can have that dex in my hand.

[Sardok]

True story...if the rumor mill follows the last big Fantasy release then about 50% of the rumors will be false and about 50% of the remaining ones will be similar but different leaving the last 25% as basically true.

Here's hoping for good things 'cause if the rumors are true...well...no more blood for the blood god 'cause his followers will be missing their teeth!

-Sardok

[Wraithlord]

Hardly with Furious Charge being built into the cost for the berzerkers. It will work out to roughly the same thing. Wounding on 3's instead of 4's, save is 3 instead of 4. The only real difference will be when attacking things with a 2+ save.

[Col_Stone]

wounding on threes is actually slightly better since you have more dice:)
and striking at I5 makes it super

[Wraithlord]

Got a shitload of new info here for you guys:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreachon
Any idea on what the weapon lay-out is of the chaos veterans and if the rac get's a boost in stats?

Weapon layouts for veterans would be a lot to list. Suffice to say they have a ton of options that will allow you to configure them for a variety of roles. They can be marked and have infiltrate standard. Anti-Tank, Close Combat, Suppressive fire are all in the realm of possibilities for Chosen.

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Is summoning (for greater ans normal deamons) going to be changed? No real rumors about his til now.
Is there any unit which is going to use the "combat squad"-rule? Most interesting for Chaos Havocs (means: can we still take 8 havocs?)

Summoning lesser daemons has a changed a bit. It works more like Deep Striking next to a Teleport Homer where the Icon (any icon) is the homer. There will not be any scatter and the Daemons can not move after being summoned. They will still be able to assault though.

For greaters, you do not designate a Daemonvessel, when the GD becomes available from reserve, you simply replace any Aspiring Champion, Lord, etc. that you have on the board. If you have no models available, the GD is lost (no more possessing a dead host.)

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thats great news i'm in the process of converting a world eaters havoc squad with 4 plasma guns - welded to the marines arms - It seemed like a unit of punishment for those bezerkers who haven't taken enough skulls recently lol

Havoks of Khorne is an interesting idea. 4 special weapons and 3 attacks each. Pretty nice.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Reaver83
well they can't infiltrate at the moment! But if they could - wow the possibilities are bloody

You can give Chosen the Icon of Khorne which will give all of them +1 attack.

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Also, since chosen are now a normal unit, I presume they will be standard sized as opposed to being based on the size of the army now?

Yes, they have a standard size though their maximum size is smaller then that of normal CSM squads.

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So far it seems that daemons in the upcoming codex have reverted to an average profile

The generic profile for Daemons is better then the last edition. Daemons (lesser or greater) also take up no slots on the FOC.

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Also has anyone heard anything of old Fabius Biles Rules? i got a hear on his stats, but does he still have the ability to hae a play with a little dna?

Yes, he can still play with the DNA of CSMs.

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I wonder if Veterans can swap their Infiltrate with another vet skill or simply get more vet skills. And if you could move them to Troops like in the first 3rd ed. codex, Alpha legionaires would be very happy.

No, Chosen can not exchange their veteran skills

The changes to the deamons are HUGE, especially the greater daemons. Holy shit!

Quote:
Originally Posted by mf_Greg
Thanks a lot again for Your answers!

I'm still curious about the summoning and some other things:

1. Nor the greater nor the lesser Deamons are allowed to move after summoning, but both can still attack, right?

2. Is there some restriction to the squad size of havocs (eg. only 5 or ten squad members allowed).

3. You did not tell us about changes of the RAC yet *g Is the Strength, AP and number of shots still the same?

4. How many Blast Masters can Noise Marines have and is this number restricted by the number of squad-members?

5. Can You confirm, that the icons also act as teleport-homers for terminators and obliterators?

Greg

1. Daemons can assault after summoning.

2. Havocs do not have combat squads. Think of them like CSMs that can take 4 special/heavies.

3. RAC stats are unchanged.

4. 1 Blastmaster per squad.

5. Yes, they do for what you listed. NOT for Raptors or models with wings however.

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For thousand sons, in the current codex, there is a way to field rubric terminators. this was in the rubric marine entry, as an upgrade. it also stated that applying this upgrade made the squad into an elites choice. will this option be in there for us to take rubric termies at all, or no? I have not seen anything like this listed at all.

Terminators can take an Icon of Tzeentch which will grant them +1 to their Invulnerable save. They are not thousand sons however and will not get the AP3 Bolt weapons, Sorcerers with Force Weapons for free, S&P, etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Worsle
Do you mean that icons wont act as teleport homers homers from raptors or that you can't use them as homers for people deep striking because they have wings? Both sound a little odd as I am not sure why the first would not happen and the second is not some thing you can do with teleport homers any way.

Models with Wings can not use the Icons as a teleport homer. They will always have a chance to scatter if they Deepstrike

Quote:
Originally Posted by Flying Dutchman
Hi,Drek can you tell me if the Khorne berserkers are being equiped with bolter,boltpistol and ccw and do you know if they have any options like plasmapistols or assault weapons etc,thanks

Zerks are armed with CCW and BP, they have the option for plasma pistols as they do now.

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1. Are the costs for Greater Demons more like the ones for the Great uncle one or more like those of the Blood Demon?

GDs are dirt cheap, I mean REAL cheap.

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2. Any remarkable changes about the Chaos Cybots? I know they will be Elite and that something changed a little in the blood frenzy table, but has something REALLY changed?

Nothing major here.

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3. Am I right, that all CSMs with icons get no Morale-Benefit (besides the undivided icon)?

Correct! Though the icon is called Chaos Glory now instead of Undivided.

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4. The daemonic possession for vehicles has changed? Can You tell us in which way (does it work like the machine spirit now)? Any hint about cost increase?

It hasn't changed much. It does what it used to do but it drops the BS of the vehicle to 3. The biggest change is that it no longer makes a vehicle not a transport. It is a little cheaper too.

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5. Does the defiler have still daemonic possession included?

Yes. The defiler is a nice piece of machinery. It has the potential to have 5 base attacks and comes with fleet. Not at all bad for the points. Another intersting note, it is no longer a monstrous creature but it has Dread CCWs.

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6. Any hints about the Chaos Spawns? Are they similar to the actual ones (the ones you can buy as wargear)?

Spawns changed and kinda wierdly. They don't take up any FOC slots, are deployed like Fast Attack, are more expensive and lost their save. The wird thing is, they have Slow and Purposeful but are catagorized as beasts. Which makes me scratch my head.

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7. Did Obliterators increase or decrease in point costs?

Neither.

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8. Can You confirm the vindicator as Heavy Support Choice?

Yes.

just a little bit to add in here,since the spawn is Slow and Purposeful they role one D6 for movement in the movement phase
and since they are beast role D6 for movement in the shooting phase.

It means they could move 2 inches or could move 12!

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Do possessed get a pistol and close combat weapon as well? So three attacks?

Nope. They have two attacks and thats it.

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Are Noise Marines still the same points?

I think I am gonna avoid specific points costs. Noise Marines are the cheapest of the Cult marines (before Sonic weaponry) but the difference isnt that big.

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Hmm. Going to make getting daemons in trickier...

Do daemons have Rending or anything like that?

No rending and infiltrating Chosen looks to be a good way to Daemon Bomb.

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They any good in combat? Same stats? How many per squad or are they individual?

With the loss of their save, they are a meh unit. Not exactly expensive and definitely throw away in the course of the game. They deploy as fast attack so that means you can minimize their weaknesses.

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1) Does the Daemonic Chains still exist?

No.

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2) I assume Noise Marines can take a heavy weapon with only 6-strong squad?

Yes.

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How many Doom Sirens can you take per squad (still 3? )

Only the Champ can get one.

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3) Do combat drugs still exist?

No.

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4) Have the rules for Dreadnoughts changed?

Nothing major.

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5) So what are the stats for Obliterators? Have they been "nerfed" as has been suggested - I can't imagine that with S and T 4 they'd still be worth the same points?! They seem fine right now...

What has been reported is true regarding their stats. Their points have not changed.

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1) are the Red Corsairs, the new ultramarines of chaos?

Not sure what you mean by this. They have some featured fluff in the book but so do a lot of legions. The armies pictured in the book seem to be mainly Black Legion.

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2) is the reaper AC changing, and is it still one for 3 terminators?

No change on stats. You can only have 1 RAC unless you have a full squad of Terms (10).

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3)what about the rumour of no shell based weaponry for obliterators? true or false.

True.

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4) any real specifics on Abbaddon?

He is very expensive but he is an absolute bad ass. They seem to have somewhat reincarnated his 2nd edition persona as being favored of Chaos. He has the equivalent of every mark (increased toughness, attacks, 4+ Invulnerable, increased In) and his blessing of the gods make him immune to instant death. You really pay for it though, this guy is very expensive but he is very much what he should be in game

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sons of Russ
can you give sonic weaponry to Marked Slaneesh Terminators ?

Terminators are not cult specific troops. They can only gain the benefit of the Icon, not the benefit of the Cult Troop bonus. In short, no. Trust me though, Terminators have a LOT of options without needing Sonic Weaponry.

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They are the new main army for the Codex. Each Codex has its own main army with other armies representing other schemes and list builds.

For Example:
C:SM- Ultramarines with Raven Guard and Imperial Fists showing other ways of building armies
C:TE- Tau sept army being the main one with The blue army representing another scheme.

I do not think you will see Codices done this way anymore. There are no traits or anything else. You could build the same army wether you painted them as Iron Warriors or Alpha Legion. As far as what is featured visually, Black Legion and Red Corsairs have a good bit in there. There are a TON of new Legions I haven't seen before and they delve into the fluff of renegades a good bit. The new book is definitely focused on Renegades as opposed to organized Legions that have been around for millenia. I like the color schemes and names of some of the legions in the book. I am gonna canabalize quite a bit of my Loyalist marines and use a mishmash of pieces to make my Chaos force. I think it wil offer a bunch of diversity with the Chaos forces people will see from now on. It lacks specific traits but definitely encourages DIY Chaos Legions much like the SM Codex did.

Quote:
Originally Posted by malisteen
Can chaos terminator lords join a terminator squad or retinue before the start of the game, allowing them to deep strike together?

Must/May Abby take a terminator retinue of some kind, and if so, does he grant any benefits to them?

Just to be clear on something you mentioned that I haven't heard before - Can a Chaos Terminator squad field two heavy weapons if they are 10 strong?

1. Not that I see anywhere.

2. No retinues of any kind.

3. Yes, but only if they are 10 strong.

Quote:
Originally Posted by malisteen
Well, it's finally happened. There's finally a rumor that makes me really bitter. A chaos terminator lord deep striking with his terminator chosen has been an iconic example of Chaos Marine tactics for ages, frequently mentioned in fluff and literature. It's bad enough that it was ineffective in 3rd edition, to just throw it out altogether in 4th edition is downright shameful.


I mean, what's the point of the pretty new terminator lord, then?

Well, look at it this way...

You can give the lord a personal icon (it is very cheap) so that if he rolls reserves before the Terminators, they can appear next to him. You will also most likely already have the terminators marked, so if they come in first, the lord can follow when he rolls on.

Quote:
Originally Posted by violenceha
The new norm seems to be 4+ invunerable saves for commanders judging by the eldar, dark angel and blood angel rules. Is this set to continue with chaos?

Not unless they take the Mark of Tzeentch. They all come with a 5+ Invuln. Standard and MoT would improve it to 4+

[Rayne]

I want to read the full codex myself before i call it a total nerf. There are somethings in there that can totally ruin an opponents day. But i do agree with you that theyve totally killed the spirit of the old legions.