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What's with the prejudice against Army Builder?...

Discussion not related to the 40k datafiles, or anything else in particular.

What's with the prejudice against Army Builder?...

#1  Postby Ghaz » Sun Aug 12, 2007 10:45 pm

http://www.40konline.com/mos/index.php? ... c=143379.0

Things like this get me hot under the collar. Somebody tells a poster that they should "... ... never never ever never use it..." So when I ask the poster to back up his claims that the files are full of 'bugs' and allow 'illegal army lists', they can't be bothered to provide a single shred of evidence to support their claims. Then the mods make the same claims and throws a hissy fit when I ask him the same question. So why are people so prejudiced against Army Builder? They make all of these claims, yet no one is willing to give specific examples.
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#2  Postby Wraithlord » Mon Aug 13, 2007 12:45 am

Well despite the maintainers best efforts there are sometimes bugs within the program itself that cause point values to be off. Sometimes, not always. Personally, I think AB is the best damn thing going and everyone I know uses it for their lists. I find I have less trust for a handmade list than one from AB myself.
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#3  Postby Rayne » Mon Aug 13, 2007 5:45 am

I prefer AB much more that the POS that GW put out, but thats just me. I like being able to use AB for more than just 40K, and i like the fact that i can make it how i want, should i care to learn how to deal with that coding nightmare. Some other people, however, feel that if it isnt handwritten, then you just downloaded it from somebody else, or feel that if it isnt made by GW, then its illegal to use.

I say "Bah!" to all those people, and i dont play against them, thats all. I know that in my game store, for tournaments, handwritten lists are illegal. It MUST be typed, and AB is prefered.
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#4  Postby harkan » Mon Aug 13, 2007 7:11 am

this really narks me as I think from reading the content of the post that the person cannot tell the difference and is actually referring to the GW version:

(unless GW has updated Army Builder very recently)


from the looks of it the person is referring to the GW version which is out of date, slowly updated n all the rest. But saying that it is still indefensible for this person to have a teddy n pull its arms off and then throw them in a corner about something to then not validate their claims.

This happens a lot and when they are challenged it is more often than not due to them being wrong. Yes bugs exist but due to the complexity of code and also the differing codex that is almost impossible to get by and as Wraith said, problems with AB mechanics can also create issues.

There was a similar thread where this happened on the same site which was managed to resolve fairly amicably. I think with this the best way to manage it is by opening up a post on the site and address issues people raise up, that way the declaimers can be either put up or shut up and misinterpretations can be resolved. It ma also act as a useful way of adding to our own FAQs on AB as if the operation of something is confusing then a 'how to' can be put in place
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#5  Postby harkan » Mon Aug 13, 2007 7:16 am

and as a side note, the person moaning about deathskulls and DE is also incorrect on both counts which leads me tho think they are either using the GW application or using AB 2.x so again by them not being specific they are talking out of their behinds, ho hum, polite version there!
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#6  Postby harkan » Mon Aug 13, 2007 7:51 am

kk, have added a post on the general 40k section on 40k online to try n pick up any more of this before their mods have a hissy fit about discussions about AB in the rules section:

http://www.40konline.com/mos/index.php? ... 73.new#new
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#7  Postby Chunky_Baby » Wed Aug 15, 2007 6:01 am

I think AB is awesome and you guys do a great job.

I have paid for full versions of the system as soon as they come out, and downloaded every list.

I'd trust what you guys have come up with then someones paper list ANY day.

I caught a kid cheating in a GW store once, and my friend only last week built a list that was ileagal before he then built it in AB.

Especially for Chaos and other difficult "Codexes" where it's a nightmare reading through the rules and FAQs.

Having said that I'd agree that the guy seemed to be talking about GW's and mistaking it for AB.
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#8  Postby shaggai » Thu Aug 16, 2007 3:31 am

Well, all in all, I said what I needed to say there without getting argumentative - at least it help me get a long hidden error out of the way.
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#9  Postby Col_Stone » Fri Sep 07, 2007 7:03 pm

AB rocks anybody that says anything else needs their head examined, :P , especially if they use GWs idea of an armybuilding program... Soooo slow and cumbersome
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#10  Postby Cheesehead » Fri Dec 07, 2007 7:05 pm

Here's the thing. If you're really that anal about people "cheating" or "making mistakes" in their army lists, then I present two scenarios:

1) Your opponent has a handwritten list - in order to verify the list you need to bring a copy of that codex (imagine at a tourney how many you'd have to bring with you), a calculator and a lot of patient reading some kids' handwriting. Take a couple minutes to verify the points costs and totals then actually play.

2) Your opponent has an AB generated list. Before the tourney you printed out the list of the small and insignificant bugs in AB and simply checked the list for instances of those bugs. Then you play.

Either way, #2 is teh winz. I don't play against people with handwritten lists that I don't know. Even my friends, and their ridiculous math skills, are suspect.
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#11  Postby Wraithlord » Fri Dec 07, 2007 8:39 pm

Exactly. Or even better are the folks who put down models on the table and say "I don't have my list on me but I know it like the back of my hand". Never doubt that they are putting more down than they should as I have seen it too many damn times.
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#12  Postby harkan » Fri Dec 07, 2007 9:05 pm

yeah they are the same ones who claim wargear that isnt there n 'magically' appears!!

wb Wraith, long time no see mate!
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#13  Postby Wraithlord » Fri Dec 07, 2007 11:16 pm

Heehee, yeah I have been busy as all hell lately. Putting in a fair few overtime hours at the plant, father-in-law dying, grandmother getting breast cancer at 84, etc, etc. Been a very busy, unenjoyable time for me and mine. Such is life :)
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#14  Postby Fyrebyrd » Sat Dec 08, 2007 2:10 am

"Ummmm Uhhhh, yeah that's my sergeant with power fist, I told you that when we first started. But you don't have it modeled that way. Yeah so, who models their stuff they way they play it?" :wallbash:

Those are the people who say that AB sucks. They are the ones who don't want to play in my gaming group because they think we are too "strict" with our rules/army list interpretation. I watched one of their games once. I nearly fell off my chair. The one who "knew the most" was the eventual winner because he would twist EVERYTHING he could to his advantage. :pukel: I don't even understand how the losing player had any fun at all...

In my own opinion, AB is for SERIOUS people who like playing a game within the parameters of the rules (you end up having fun anyways).

:santa: Welcome back Wraith. The guys are getting sick of seeing my posts.
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